I think Pete got to the key point here. All EHS personnel I am familiar with in research environments highly value a collaborative

relationship with research staff.  They are also beholden to the institution management to highlight risks to the institution.  Ultimately

management makes a risk / benefit decision, similar to countless other risk / benefit decisions they make in other areas of the business.

I don't see where an academic freedom argument exists in this case.

Ken

Ken Kretchman, CIH, CSP   Director, Environmental Health and Safety

NC State University / Box 8007 / 2620 Wolf Village Way / Raleigh North Carolina 27695-8007

Email: Ken_Kretchman**At_Symbol_Here**ncsu.edu / Phone: (919).515.6860 / Fax: (919).515.6307

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 3:49 PM Reinhardt, Peter <peter.reinhardt**At_Symbol_Here**yale.edu> wrote:

I think that nearly all EHS professionals greatly prefer to be partners with researchers, to help researchers in their work. While the loss of important fluorine research is unfortunate, it appears that the lab/PI in the article is the exception. In this case, my reading is that EHS did the proper thing--to raise the "incidents" and substandard conditions to university leadership's attention, to conduct a safety review, and to bring in outside experts to evaluate the cost of brining the lab up to standards. As I read this article, it was the university leadership's decision to close the lab, not their Office of Research Safety. Hard choices sometimes need to be made, and I am proud that Clemson made a decision on the side of safety. 

Proper PPE for handling N2 is not costly, so I must wonder if the PI truly makes safety a priority. I also wonder if the PI had requested standard safeguards (i.e., the necessary $1 million in safety upgrades) from the university or in his grants. 

Again, this really appears to be the exception. Exceptions happen. EHS professionals are expected to act when they find such safety problems. As a result, partnerships may end and (unsafe) research may be impeded. And it really has nothing to do with academic freedom.

Pete Reinhardt, Yale EHS

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From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> on behalf of Lawrence Tirri <larry.tirri**At_Symbol_Here**UNLV.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 1:56 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Academic freedom?

 

Neal,  I agree completely with how you describe the role of safety staff. Before retirement, when I was leading the safety department, my team established a collaborative relationship with academic and research faculty. The question we asked was how we could help them work safely with the materials and equipment they needed to use.  We viewed this as our responsibility, and to help both the academic and research faculty develop their understanding that they too had the responsibility to work safely and to mentor their students to work safely as well by setting the example..   

Larry Tirri, Emeritus

Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry 

UNLV

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 29, 2018, at 4:17 PM, NEAL LANGERMAN <neal**At_Symbol_Here**CHEMICAL-SAFETY.COM> wrote:

Paul:

You have brought this discussion full circle back to about 2-3 years ago. The message I tried to get across then and still repeat whenever given the opportunity: "The job of the safety professional is to help the research occur safely; never to impede progress."

 

Yes, there are times we need to say "slow down"; but our job is to figure out how the work can proceed.  While my academic roots were in the soil of the funding-starved PI, I recognize there are others much more qualified to evaluate the quality of most current research.

 

I hope 2019 continues the trend of graduate students pulling their mentors to include safety as part of their education.  The graduate-student centric Joint Safety Committees are a powerful mechanism.  I am pleased ACS/CHAS are working so hard to grow this concept.

 

nl

 

 

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From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Harrison, Paul
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 1:15 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Academic freedom?

 

Hello all: while I continue to respect the members of this discussion list and the work they do, I do feel this particular thread has gone rather off track, and taken on a somewhat anti-academic theme that seems inappropriate to me.

My own interpretation of academic freedom at its most fundamental (and there may be other aspects) is that it covers the right to perform research in areas of one's own choice; this is in stark contrast to the industrial case, made earlier in this thread, where an "employee" of a company may well be compelled by an "employer" to move field, in line with the company's objectives (usually money).  The academic freedom concept is a hard-fought-for principle that should not be dismissed lightly, for example solely by safety arguments that say the work cannot be done.

That said, this "right" to work in the area that fascinates us academics has limits: first, of course, money raises its ugly head, and one has to convince grant panels and so forth that the work is worth funding.  Presumably the work in fluorine chemistry that has raised this matter has already been judged to have met that standard, and I am not convinced that it is up to the safety community to judge the work again.

Safety poses a similar challenge in the context of academic freedom, in the sense that it should not be used to ride roughshod over the fundamental right to do the work, yet still is an absolute requirement of it.  As such, I see the role of the safety professional as working with the academic to facilitate the work being conducted in a safe manner.  If the work has been judged worthy of funding, then the budget should include all the funds necessary for the safety program to perform the work (beyond whatever the institution might agree to provide).  I rather doubt that there are many projects which it would not be possible, in principle at least, to perform safely.

I will say that I can imagine that it can be frustrating for safety professionals to work with academics who oppose them at every move.  However, it may be helpful to recognize that the academic may well be an expert in the specific materials and the nature of the risks associated with them (e.g. fluorine), while the safety professional is more of an expert in assessment of those risks.  I have found that a collegial approach has been more productive in the long run, and I say this both as an academic and from many years working on and with our safety committees.

Anyhow, my 5 cents' worth... 

Paul Harrison, B.A. Hons. (Oxon), Ph.D.

Associate Professor and Associate Chair (Undergraduate)

Chemistry & Chemical Biology

Dept. of Chemistry & Chemical Biology ABB-156 McMaster University 1280 Main St. West. Hamilton, ON L8S 4M1

=E2=80=82location: ABB-418 =E2=80=82phone: (905) 525-9140 x 27290 =E2=80=82email: pharriso**At_Symbol_Here**mcmaster.ca

 

---

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] on behalf of Daniel Kuespert [0000057d3b6cd9b7-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU]
Sent: December 29, 2018 6:38 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Academic freedom?

Ghastly. I get variations on the "academic freedom" and "I am an expert in this research area therefore I am an expert on this research area's safety" arguments all the time.

 

The idea that scholars should have unrestricted "freedom to communicate ideas or facts without being targeted for imprisonment," etc. is ridiculous. Such an over-broad interpretation of academic freedom basically gives carte blanche for faculty members to engage in risky behaviors and subject their students (or even the public) to the same risks. Dr. Thrasher does not have the "academic freedom" to teach his students to dispense LN barehanded, as the caption for the photo states he is doing. That doing so is safe is not a "fact,", but it is an idea-one that he has a positive ethical and legal responsibility not to foster.

 

No one has the right in a civil society to disseminate ideas that are potentially physically injurious to others=E2=80"if someone gets hurt or killed, the authorities can interpret it as anything from reckless endangerment to depraved-heart murder. Academic freedom is limited by the same factors that limit other freedoms-particularly other people's right to be free from injury or death. Recall the old saying, "your right to swing your fist stops where my nose begins."

 

Daniel Reid Kuespert, PhD, CSP

dankuespert**At_Symbol_Here**me.com

11101 Wood Elves Way

Columbia, MD 21044

410-992-9709

On Dec 27, 2018, at 11:41 AM, Ralph Stuart <000005bc294e9212-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU> wrote:

 

This is an interesting case study for those of us overseeing academic laboratories.

https://www.independentmail.com/story/news/2018/12/21/clemson-university-lab-shuts-down-over-safety-concerns/2268019002/

The article above includes an interesting take on academic freedom. Wikipedia describes academic freedom as
"Academic freedom is the conviction that the freedom of inquiry by faculty members is essential to the mission of the academy as well as the principles of academia, and that scholars should have freedom to teach or communicate ideas or facts (including those that are inconvenient to external political groups or to authorities) without being targeted for repression, job loss, or imprisonment."

The story doesn't indicate that any of those consequences are likely as a result of the University's action. The professor's case that he operates safely would probably be stronger if he wasn't pictured dispensing liquid nitrogen barehanded as part of the story...

- Ralph

Ralph Stuart, CIH, CCHO
rstuartcih**At_Symbol_Here**me.com

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