Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:18:05 -0600
Reply-To: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
Sender: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Wendy Campbell <wendycampbell**At_Symbol_Here**BOISESTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Perchloric Acid Fume Hood Decommissioning
In-Reply-To: <F5D83326DC77FD4EA138E9194D6B288833552F2C59**At_Symbol_Here**DSMAILBOX.ad.uiuc.edu>

Ni Nick, You've just hit the nail straight on - at this moment there's no evidence for or against perchlorate contamination, so I'm taking the conservative route and assuming that at some point, unbeknownst to everyone else, someon e fumed perchloric in the hood. I'm not willing to rely on memories, so we'r e approaching this as if it is the most perchlorate-contaminated system ever, until proven otherwise. I'm coordinating with our emergency response teams, and meeting with the project director and contractors on Monday, armed with war stories and a variety of publications. I'm hoping that I can impress the potential seriousness of the situation on the contractors, and figure out whether to proceed with them, or to move to someone with high-haz capabilities. When it's all over, I may write up a short something on how it went! Wendy On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Tsiakals, Nicholas John < tsiakals**At_Symbol_Here**illinois.edu> wrote: > Wendy, if you can share, what evidence do you have of perchlorate > contamination? > > > > Also, have you considered contracting the service - either high haz > evaluation or full high haz removal? Perchlorate-contaminated ductwork > presents a number of tough problems - such as removing portions of a du ct > run without introducing friction or vibration to a contaminated site. Th e > approach needs to guard against metal perchlorates built-up at duct joint s, > at individual screws, etc. I believe there are heat-imaging field device s > that help visualize pre-detonation reaction - but that=92s my fuzzy mem ory on > that. This gets very expensive - perhaps the largest problem is proper ly > identifying work that should not proceed without the highly skilled help > (and corresponding price tag). > > > > In concept, every lab hood system can be considered > perchlorate-contaminated, albeit at differing confidence levels. What I > mean to say is that you frankly don=92t know if some researcher ran heate d > perchloric up the hood a decade or two or three back, regardless of that > hood bearing the label =93perchloric hood=94. Servicing any lab hood sys tem in > a chemical lab building should not be done lightly. To an appreciable > extent, you have residual risks you don=92t get to fully eliminate in the duct > systems. But the more robustly you can build a case for the high haz pri ce > tag, the more likely purse strings will loosen for you in a given case. > > > > Hope this helps, > > -Nick > > *___________________________________* > > *Nicholas J. Tsiakals* > > Division of Research Safety > > Chemical Safety Section > > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > (217) 244 - 0682 > > www.drs.illinois.edu > > > > "If we don't train students in risk management and safety procedures, the n > we're not training them for employment in modern industry. If we want > someone to turn up in a job and be productive, they can't do that if they 're > not safety aware." > > -- Prof. Thomas Welton, Head, Department of Chemistry, Imperial Colle ge > London -- > > > > *From:* DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] *On Behalf > Of *Ernest Lippert > *Sent:* Thursday, April 15, 2010 5:09 PM > *To:* DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU > *Subject:* Re: [DCHAS-L] Perchloric Acid Fume Hood Decommissioning > > > > Wendy, > > We moved several perchloric acid hoods some years ago without incident. T he > city fire department was quite willing to standby at the scene. Wash down > with plenty of water from the top down. Perchlorates like to build up at > bends so go slow and wash well, particularly the fans. Don't rely on the > old-timers, the hoods were used with perchloric acid. > > Take care, > > Ernie Lippert > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Wendy Campbell < > wendycampbell**At_Symbol_Here**boisestate.edu> wrote: > > We are in the process of remodeling a building, which currently houses an > old perchloric acid fume hood. I'm still tracking down how old it is, bu t > I'm fairly sure it's at least 30 years of age. As part of the remodel, t he > perc hood is to be removed. There are several issues here. > > 1. No one remembers any hot perchloric acid work ever being performed in > this hood (I'm still tracking down the recently retired folks to see what > they know), and it has been either sealed shut or used as a regular chemi cal > fume hood over the past 10-15 years. I'm not sure whether trusting in > people's memories over the course of the hood's life is the best policy. > > 2. The duct system is plumbed above the bench of the hood so that it > washes a six foot run of ducting and the hood itself. The plumbing does NOT > extend any farther up the duct system, nor out onto the roof where it ven ts, > which leads us to......... > > 3. The duct takes a turn approximately two feet above where it emerges > from the roof, and has approximately 3-4 feet of vertical run to the blow er > assembly. > > The plan under consideration at the moment is to start on the roof and > check each section for the presence of perchlorates, then spray the heck out > of it with water before removing just that section. > > I'm hoping for some feedback regarding other people's experiences, > suggestions for procedure / materials, and anything else the combined wis dom > of these fine groups can give us to perform this remodel safely and in a > timely fashion. I know the contractors would like to start within the ne xt > couple of weeks. > > Pictures of the rooftop portion of the hood's exhaust system have been > posted to the AIHAH and Hazmat group sites on Yahoo, but I'm still workin g > on how to share my Flickr account with folks - perhaps just contacting me > off-list? > > Thanks in advance, > Wendy > > -- > Wendy Campbell, ASP > Occupational Health and Safety Officer > Environmental Health and Safety > Boise State University > 1910 University Drive > Boise, Idaho 83725-1826 > Office: (208) 426-3303 > Fax: (208) 426-3343 > > > -- Wendy Campbell, ASP Occupational Health and Safety Officer Environmental Health and Safety Boise State University 1910 University Drive Boise, Idaho 83725-1826 Office: (208) 426-3303 Fax: (208) 426-3343

Ni Nick,

You've just hit the nail straight on - at this moment t here's no evidence for or against perchlorate contamination, so I'm taking the conservative route and assuming that at some point, unbeknownst to everyone else, someone fumed perchloric in the hood.=A0 I'm not wil ling to rely on memories, so we're approaching this as if it is the mos t perchlorate-contaminated system ever, until proven otherwise.=A0

I'm coordinating with our emergency response teams, and meeting wit h the project director and contractors on Monday, armed with war stories an d a variety of publications.=A0 I'm hoping that I can impress the poten tial seriousness of the situation on the contractors, and figure out whethe r to proceed with them, or to move to someone with high-haz capabilities. =A0

When it's all over, I may write up a short something on how it went !

Wendy

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 7: 54 AM, Tsiakals, Nicholas John <tsiakals**At_Symbol_Here**illinois.edu> wrote:

Wendy, if you can share, what evidence do you have of perchlorate contamination?

=A0

Also, have you considered contracting the service - either high haz evaluation or full high haz removal?=A0 Perchlorate-contaminated d uctwork presents a number of tough problems - such as removing portions of a duct run without introducing friction or vibration to a contaminated site.=A0 Th e approach needs to guard against metal perchlorates built-up at duct joints, at individual screws, etc.=A0 I believe there are heat-imaging field devices that help visualize pre-detonation reaction - but that=92s my fuzzy memory on that.=A0 This gets very expensive - perhaps the largest problem is properly identifying work that should not proceed without the hi ghly skilled help (and corresponding price tag).=A0

=A0

In concept, every lab hood system can be considered perchlorate-contaminated, albeit at differing confidence levels.=A0 What I mean to say is that you frankly don=92t know if some researcher ran heated perchloric up the hood a decade or two or three back, regardless of that ho od bearing the label =93perchloric hood=94.=A0 Servicing any lab hood system in a chemical lab building should not be done lightly.=A0 To an appreciable extent, you have residual risks you don=92t get to fully eliminate in the duct systems.=A0 But the more robustly you can build a case for the high ha z price tag, the more likely purse strings will loosen for you in a given cas e.

=A0

Hope this helps,

-Nick

___________________________________

Nicholas J.=A0Tsiakals

Division of Research Safety

Chemical Safety Section

University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

(217) 244 - 0682

www.drs.illinois.edu

=A0

"If we don't train students in risk management and safety procedures, then we're not training them for employment in modern industry.=A0 If we want someone to turn up in a job and be productive, they can't do that if they're not safety aware."=A0

=A0=A0=A0 -- Prof. Thomas Welton, Head, Department of Chemistry, Imperial College London --

=A0

From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHA S-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] On Behalf Of Ernest Lippert
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 5:09 PM
To: DCHAS- L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Perchloric Acid Fume Hood Decommissioning

=A0

Wendy,

We moved several perchloric acid hoods some years ag o without incident. The city fire department was quite willing to standby at the scene. Wash down with plenty of water from the top down. Perchlorates like to build up at bends so go slow and wash well, particularly the fans. =A0Don&# 39;t rely on the old-timers, the hoods were used with perchloric acid.

Take care,

Ernie Lippert

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Wendy Campbell < wendycamp bell**At_Symbol_Here**boisestate.edu> wrote:

We are in the process of remodeling a building, which currently houses an old perchloric acid fume hood.=A0 I'm still tracking down how old it is, but I'm fairly sure it's at least 30 years of age.=A0 As part of the remodel, the perc hood is to be re moved.=A0 There are several issues here.=A0

1.=A0 No one remembers any hot perchloric acid work ever being performed in this hood (I'm still tracking down the recently retired folks to see wh at they know), and it has been either sealed shut or used as a regular chemical fum e hood over the past 10-15 years.=A0 I'm not sure whether trusting in peo ple's memories over the course of the hood's life is the best policy.

2.=A0 The duct system is plumbed above the bench of the hood so that it washes a six foot run of ducting and the hood itself.=A0 The plumbing does NOT extend any farther up the duct system, nor out onto the roof where it vents, which leads us to.........

3.=A0 The duct takes a turn approximately two feet above where it emerges from the roof, and has approximately 3-4 feet of vertical run to the blower assembly.=A0

The plan under consideration at the moment is to start on the roof and chec k each section for the presence of perchlorates, then spray the heck out of i t with water before removing just that section.=A0

I'm hoping for some feedback regarding other people's experiences, suggestions for procedure / materials, and anything else the combined wisdom of these f ine groups can give us to perform this remodel safely and in a timely fashion.=A0 I know the contractors would like to start within the next couple of weeks.=A0

Pictures of the rooftop portion of the hood's exhaust system have been posted to the AIHAH and Hazmat group sites on Yahoo, but I'm still working on how to share my Flickr account with folks - perhaps just contacting me off-list?
Thanks in advance,
Wendy

--
Wendy Campbell, ASP
Occupational Health and Safety Officer
Environmental Health and Safety
Boise State University
1910 University Drive
Boise, Idaho 83725-1826
Office: (208) 426-3303
Fax: =A0(208) 426-3343

=A0




--
Wendy Campbell, ASP
Occupational Health and Safety Officer
Environmental Health and Safety < br>Boise State University
1910 University Drive
Boise, Idaho 83725-18 26
Office: (208) 426-3303
Fax: =A0(208) 426-3343

--000e0cd1792460262904845dcb73--

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