A purple K for phosphorus? But purple or silvery, you don't keep K under
water. As is often the case, the fire department probably knows enough to be
dangerous!

For students, professionals, and public safety responders: Plan,
Communicate, Practice, Discuss (a lot of "What-If" scenarios), Evaluate,
Committ -- the acronym BCPDEC doesn't say much but the idea is clear.

Regards,
Ernie Lippert

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gross  wrote:

> I can not agree more.  I wrote almost an identical email, but I
> decided to wait 24 hours to let my anger at the suggestion die down to
> make sure I wasn't coming on strong.  Here is what I wrote yesterday:
>
> I have to strongly disagree with your live burn training.  As a
> firefighter, I am trained to recognize and understand the difference
> between a Class A through D fire.  What you are describing would be a
> Class A fire, which for cost reasons, would most likely be put out
> with a Class A extinguisher/Water Can.  The students would know how to
> put out a class A combustible fire sure, but that is the furthest
> thing from a threat in a laboratory.
>
> In a lab you have to worry about the class B (oil based) and class D
> (misc/exotic) fires.  Even if the student is educated in which
> extinguisher to grab, attacking a Class B or D fire in the same tactic
> that you would attack a class A fire would most definitely be
> catastrophic, only to encourage the spread of the involved material.
>
> What students need to be taught is fire prevention and the basics and
> have them constantly reinforced.  First, never panic, stop drop and
> roll in fire, know your exits and stay low during evacuation as well
> as use of a fire blanket.  We don't need heros in the laboratory, we
> need prudent, safe workers.  Leave the hero game to trained
> professionals or someone will get hurt.
>
> Perhaps the FD removed the cans for a reason.  A class A extinguisher
> has no place in a lab and you are better off with nothing.  You need a
> combination of A/B/C and B/C cans as well as the proper D can for
> whatever is in the lab (ie, purple K for phosphorus)
>
> To the contrary, I like the "don't panic" training you laid out.  If
> you would like more consultation on that feel free to ask.
>
> Sorry to knock your idea in public, but setting a garbage can on fire
> and calling it training is just asking for a funeral when a chem fire
> erupts and some dope thinks its the same attack.
>
> Drew
>
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:31 AM, List Moderator wrote:
> > From:   rj**At_Symbol_Here**strem.com
> > Subject:        RE: [DCHAS-L] Extinguishers
> > Date:   August 12, 2009 10:03:56 AM EDT
> >
> > There are a lot of different regulations that we all have to abide by,
> > and they can be very confusing as to which ones to follow. Being a
> > firefighter, I can tell you that Debbie is correct when it comes to Fire
> > Code.  Your local/state fire marshal's office decides the regulations,
> > but that does not mean if you have fire extinguishers present to ignore
> > OSHA regulations.
> >
> >> From a firefighter's standpoint, when it comes to fires in a lab, we
> >
> > never like to see anyone try to extinguish a fire. The reasoning for
> > this is, the student/employee does not have on the correct PPE on to try
> > to fight a fire. Working with chemicals we know that a fire can get out
> > of control very quickly, and we don't want anyone getting caught in a
> > situation like that without firefighter experience, proper training, or
> > correct PPE.
> >
> > After that being said fire extinguishers still belong in the lab. The
> > main propose of a fire extinguisher is for defensive use. Meaning, if
> > there was a fire that blocked the exits of a room, a fire extinguisher
> > should be available to use to assure the safe exit of everyone from the
> > room/building.  So, I completely disagree with the removal of the fire
> > extinguishers from the facility, your lab needs to have training at
> > least once a year, and ask the fire department for help with the
> > training. Fire extinguishers are a life safety tool and they should be
> > present!
> >
> > You should also check with your local fire department to see if the
> > community has adopted National Fire Protection Association (NFPA)
> > standards. If they have adopted them then you would want to get NFPA 10
> > Standard for Portable Fire Extinguishers.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > R.J. Wolcik
> >
> > Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain
> > confidential or legally privileged information that is intended only for
> > the individual or entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the
> > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> > copying, distribution, or reliance upon the contents of this e-mail is
> > strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in
> > error, please reply to the sender, so that Strem Chemicals Inc. can
> > arrange for proper delivery, and then please delete the message from
> > your Inbox. Thank you.
> >
>
>




A purple K for phosphorus? But purple or silvery, you don't keep K
 under water. As is often the case, the fire department probably knows enou
gh to be dangerous!
=A0
For students, professionals, and public safety responders: Plan, Commu
nicate, Practice, Discuss (a lot of "What-If" scenarios), Evaluat
e, Committ -- the acronym BCPDEC doesn't say much but the idea is clear
.

=A0
Regards,
Ernie Lippert


On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gross <gross.drew**At_Symbol_Here**gmai
l.com> wrote:

I can not agree more. =A0I wrote
 almost an identical email, but I
decided to wait 24 hours to let my ang
er at the suggestion die down to

make sure I wasn't coming on strong. =A0Here is what I wrote yesterday:


I have to strongly disagree with your live burn training. =A0As afirefighter, I am trained to recognize and understand the difference
b
etween a Class A through D fire. =A0What you are describing would be a

Class A fire, which for cost reasons, would most likely be put out
with 
a Class A extinguisher/Water Can. =A0The students would know how to
put 
out a class A combustible fire sure, but that is the furthest
thing from
 a threat in a laboratory.

In a lab you have to worry about the class B (oil based) and class D
(misc/exotic) fires. =A0Even if the student is educated in which
exting
uisher to grab, attacking a Class B or D fire in the same tactic
that yo
u would attack a class A fire would most definitely be

catastrophic, only to encourage the spread of the involved material.

What students need to be taught is fire prevention and the basics and
h
ave them constantly reinforced. =A0First, never panic, stop drop and
rol
l in fire, know your exits and stay low during evacuation as well

as use of a fire blanket. =A0We don't need heros in the laboratory, we<
br>need prudent, safe workers. =A0Leave the hero game to trained
profess
ionals or someone will get hurt.

Perhaps the FD removed the cans for
 a reason. =A0A class A extinguisher

has no place in a lab and you are better off with nothing. =A0You need a
combination of A/B/C and B/C cans as well as the proper D can for
whate
ver is in the lab (ie, purple K for phosphorus)

To the contrary, I l
ike the "don't panic" training you laid out. =A0If

you would like more consultation on that feel free to ask.

Sorry to 
knock your idea in public, but setting a garbage can on fire
and calling
 it training is just asking for a funeral when a chem fire
erupts and so
me dope thinks its the same attack.

Drew




On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:31 AM, List Moderator<<
a href="mailto:ecgrants**At_Symbol_Here**uvm.edu">ecgrants**At_Symbol_Here**uvm.edu> wrote:
> 
From: =A0 rj**At_Symbol_Here**strem.com
> Subject:
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0RE: [DCHAS-L] Extinguishers

> Date: =A0 August 12, 2009 10:03:56 AM EDT
>
> There are a 
lot of different regulations that we all have to abide by,
> and they
 can be very confusing as to which ones to follow. Being a
> firefigh
ter, I can tell you that Debbie is correct when it comes to Fire

> Code. =A0Your local/state fire marshal's office decides the regula
tions,
> but that does not mean if you have fire extinguishers presen
t to ignore
> OSHA regulations.
>
>> From a firefighte
r's standpoint, when it comes to fires in a lab, we

>
> never like to see anyone try to extinguish a fire. The reasoni
ng for
> this is, the student/employee does not have on the correct P
PE on to try
> to fight a fire. Working with chemicals we know that a
 fire can get out

> of control very quickly, and we don't want anyone getting caught i
n a
> situation like that without firefighter experience, proper trai
ning, or
> correct PPE.
>
> After that being said fire ex
tinguishers still belong in the lab. The

> main propose of a fire extinguisher is for defensive use. Meaning, if<
br>> there was a fire that blocked the exits of a room, a fire extinguis
her
> should be available to use to assure the safe exit of everyone 
from the

> room/building. =A0So, I completely disagree with the removal of the fi
re
> extinguishers from the facility, your lab needs to have training
 at
> least once a year, and ask the fire department for help with th
e

> training. Fire extinguishers are a life safety tool and they should be

> present!
>
> You should also check with your local fir
e department to see if the
> community has adopted National Fire Prot
ection Association (NFPA)

> standards. If they have adopted them then you would want to get NFPA 1
0
> Standard for Portable Fire Extinguishers.
>
> Best re
gards,
>
> R.J. Wolcik
>
> Confidentiality Notice: 
This e-mail transmission may contain

> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended only f
or
> the individual or entity named in the e-mail address. If you are
 not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any discl
osure,

> copying, distribution, or reliance upon the contents of this e-mail is

> strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission
 in
> error, please reply to the sender, so that Strem Chemicals Inc.
 can

> arrange for proper delivery, and then please delete the message from> your Inbox. Thank you.
>